The Library of Spanking Fiction: Wellred Weekly


Wellred Weekly
Volume 1, Number 2 : November 22, 2011
 
Articles
Items of interest regarding all things spanking

The Psychology of Spankings - Part 1 (cont)
by Grace Brackenridge

The Social Psychology Of Spankings
In terms of social structure, a spanking is a social event involving a dyad that consists of a spanker and a spankee. Whether consensual or not, the spanker enacts the sadomasochistic role of a dominant while the spankee enacts the role of submissive. In Sadomasochistic Role-Playing as Live-Action Role-Playing: A Trait-Descriptive Analysis, Finnish scholar J. Tuomas Harviainen of the University of Tampere argues that all sadomasochistic activities have elements of role-playing. A spanking is a type of "game" where players enact certain roles in a semi-ritualized manner.

Among consenting adults, sadomasochistic role-playing is constructed to enhance the pleasure of both participants. When a child is spanked, he or she is not exactly consenting in the same way that an adult submissive consents to a sadomasochistic activity. Because spankings are often given in the heat of the moment, the child knows instinctively that a certain amount of cooperation may reduce the severity of the punishment. So out of self-interest (a less-severe spanking), a desire to please a loved one who is doing the spanking, compliance with social norms of the family or school, or some combination of all three, the child plays the role of a submissive in the ritualized game of corporal punishment.

Thus, the spanking adult and spanked child form a dyad where sadomasochistic role-playing is a predominant theme. The child may be asked to fetch a spanking implement. The spanker may shame the child by forcing the spankee to stand or sit in a corner, either before or after the spanking. Sometimes, corner time involves the child standing or sitting with the buttocks exposed. A special room of the house may be reserved for the spanking ritual. The parent may require the child to request his or her own spanking, as a way of clarifying the submissiveness of the child's role.

Indeed, how-to parenting books such as Roy Lessin's Spanking: Why When How? reads very much like soft-core pornography for those with the spanking fetish. In Lessin's sadomasochistic theater (the home), Christian children are expected to submit graciously to spankings. If they don't submit graciously, such willful children must be spanked and spanked again. Lessin's own daughter needed several such additional spankings before she learned her proper role in the father/daughter sadomasochistic ritual. After multiple spankings for lack of submissiveness, Lessin speaks glowingly of the daughter he finally dominated in the precise sense of the word. "Instead of fighting and resisting, [his daughter] took a posture that revealed an inward attitude of willingness to receive correction." Her willingness to submit to spankings "was responsible for bringing a special sweetness and happiness into her entire disposition."

A child is supposed to be spanked hard enough to break down the child's resistance: "Wait for the proper cry." Lessin even provides a "spank-o-meter," with a needle that swings from a "cry of protest or anger" to a "cry of repentance." Parents are admonished to make that needle swing into the high zone, till a cry of repentance is beaten out of the child. A too-soft spanking leaves the spanked child "only angered." The parent must dominate the child; the will of the child must be crushed.

Lessin's how-to guide for spanking children is targeted at fundamentalist Christians, who may or may not be consciously sadomasochists. But the sadomasochistic subtext in parenting guides such as Lessin's book is blatant. In one of the numerous spanking scenes that Lessin describes, his wife had just given their son a "quick" spanking on the seat of his pants for some unspecified misdeed. "Mommy, could you spank me again?" the boy asks his mother after her initial enactment of the sadomasochistic ritual. "Only this time let me pull down my jeans. It didn't hurt enough."

The Sociology & Ideology Of Spankings
In 2011, 23-year-old Hillary Adams posted a video of a 7-minute whipping she received from her father, William Adams. She recorded the video in 2004, when she was 16. Her crime? Illegal file sharing on the Internet. At the time of the whipping, her father was a judge in Texas who adjudicates child abuse cases. Before reading the rest of this piece, please view this video on YouTube. Useful search terms are "Hillary Adams."

Unlike Roy Lessin's daughter, 16-year-old Hillary Adams does not lie down submissively on her bed so she can be whipped properly with a belt. Indeed, her lack of submissiveness seems to drive Judge Adams into a whipping frenzy. At 1:21 minutes into the video clip, the angry father demands that Hillary "bend over the fucking bed." When she still refuses to assume the role of the submissive in her father's sadomasochistic ritual, he threatens to whip her face with the belt. Instead, he whips her legs and arms, leaving bruises the next day. When Hillary told her father the next day that it hurt to walk, he replied, "Good."

Hallie Adams, the girl's mother, intercedes in the ritual. Hallie Adams demands that her daughter roll over on her stomach for a single solid lash with the strap. At 2:15 minutes, Hallie shouts, "Turn over like a 16-year-old and take it! Like a grown woman!" One is left to speculate on the role of the judge's belt in Mrs. Adams' sexual relationship with her husband (now divorced). When Hillary rolls over on her bed, her mother takes the strap back over her shoulder and lashes her daughter's buttocks. "Thank you!" says the mother as her daughter cries. The father returns in a few minutes to whip the teenager some more.

The judge was not indicted for any state or federal crimes. If the judge had assaulted anyone other than his child, there would be no question that Judge Adams committed criminal assault. Whipping people with a belt to punish is not allowed in the military, in prisons, in mental institutions, or in other settings known for sadomasochistic rituals enacted in the guise of discipline.

The Adams family case study is a perfect microcosm of the sociology and authoritarian ideology of spankings. Authoritarian societies are those organized around the core concept of submission to authority. Authoritarian societies are fundamentally anti-democratic in that the equality implicit in the right of every one of us to vote for the laws that govern us is the antithesis of the authoritarian social order.

In psychology, the authoritarian personality was developed to identify people with personality traits in synch with authoritarian social orders, such as Nazi Germany. While that original conceptualization is largely rejected by most psychologists today, American researchers have conducted studies that use the Right Wing Authoritarian concept as a way of describing survey measures of submission to authority, aggression toward minorities, and adherence to the values espoused by those they consider legitimate authority. Fantasy sadomasochistic role-playing often takes on the trappings of authoritarian social settings, such as prisons, Catholic schools or convents, or slave quarters.

The Hillary Adams incident happened in Texas. Noteworthy, Texas has one of the worst human rights records on the planet, when the infliction of capital punishment is used as an indicator. In 2007, China executed 470 people, Iran executed 317 people, Saudi Arabia executed 143 people, Pakistan executed 135 people, the Democratic Republic of the Congo executed 100 people, Egypt executed 48 people, and the United States of America executed 42 people. Of the 42 American executions, Texas executed 26 people, well over half. Even though the United States generates lists of offending nations around the world for human rights violations, the United States of America ranks seventh on the planet with regard to this fundamental violation of human rights. In the USA, Texas is the worst offender.

Texas also leads the nation with the most children paddled at school. Of the 223,190 U.S. school paddlings in 2008, teachers and principals in Texas paddled 49,197 children or 22%. In Texas, parents can request that school personnel not hit their children, but Texas state law permits paddlings of children even over parental objections.

Texas is a slave state. Slavery is a key issue, because it demystifies much about spanking, spousal abuse, Christian "family values," and the authoritarian social order. The paddle was invented as a way to punish slaves. Whipping slaves with a bullwhip broke the skin and reduced the value of the merchandise. Paddlings bruised the buttocks and excruciating pain could be inflicted. However, the retail value of the "product" was not damaged in the process.

Hallie Adams' demand that her daughter take her whipping "like a woman" reflects -- in three words -- the social order in authoritarian systems rooted in Christian fundamentalism. Slave-state Christians are not the only authoritarian folks around, but they provide the saturated case for a social order that places the authoritarian family structure as the fundamental unit of a society based on authoritarianism. This authoritarianism reflects the way God has ordered the universe.

In the fundamentalist Christian home, the wife is subordinate to the husband. The children are subordinate to the father and to the mother in her subordinate role as the helper of the father. Prior to 1863, slaves on a plantation were subordinate as well to the master and father, just as all good Christians are subordinate to the master and father in heaven. Beating of slaves was but one way to maintain the authoritarian social order. Castrations and hangings could impose the social order on non-submissive slaves, just as Judge Adams' belt imposed the authoritarian family social order on uncooperative 16-year-old Hillary Adams.

This article will conclude in the next issue
 
35 comments:
canadianspankee said...
This is the opinion of one writer and other professionals back up what she states. However as far as children are concerned there are just as many professionals on the other side of the fence when it comes to spanking of children.

As one looks at this world we live in can we honestly say the generation raised during the time period where spanking was discouraged a "better" group of adults. I tend to think that the generation raised around the time of Dr Spock (who later admitted he was wrong by the way) suffered a great deal and still suffers today because of lack of disicpline.

We are not talking beatings or spanking in anger, but normal loving spankings never hurt any of the previous generations any more then what one could say the "non-spanked" generation was hurt by what happened to them.

Spanking is a decision made by each parent and no matter what the parent chooses, they should not be looked down upon because they choose to spank or not spank.
22 November 2011 03:57
Sebastian said...
This was a very interesting article. Quite detailed on this subject matter on spanking. Question: Can a parent understand the idea that some children might be mentally ill by means of ADD or ADHD or anxiety, depression and they will still spank them, even if the child could not help himself. That is quite possible. Sometimes the parent will not acknowledge such an illness and still use CP on the child. Many of the parents have their own problems and will take it out on the children. In a great many cases the so-called "normal loving spankings" do not exist. How could anyone inflict pain upon any child that they love. It is barbaric. Give a child a time-out in the corner, while sitting in a chair for about 15 minutes. It would feel like an hour to a child. Even this might be cruel to a child who has mental problems.
When children were spanked for every little thing, 40 or more years ago, mental illness in children were not even acknowledged and didn't exist. Terrible.
22 November 2011 04:35
DrGrace said...
Canadianspankee, you are correct. My article is, indeed, an op/ed piece. However, your assertion that "there are just as many professionals on the other side of the fence [pro-spanking]" is simply not true. I address the illusion of a "divided" social scientific community in Part 2 of this article.
22 November 2011 12:34
canadianspankee said...
I am not going to get into a debate about who supports what. The point I am making is that there are many parents who chose to spank their children and to make these people seem like they are mean or cruel.

Stats say roughly 60% of Canadian families still use spanking as a punishment method, any attempt to make these families look bad in others eyes or say they are wrong is trying to impose one's own views on people, which to me is simply wrong.

Articles should be about making a choice, education is one thing, but evens hinting or liking these parents back to the beatings of slaves even if not intentional is a bit much don't you think. Spanking is a choice by every individual parent and if that is their choice then no one, professional or otherwise has the right to run down their choice or their actions.
22 November 2011 16:16
mati said...
It's a very interesting article. I was sure, that I couldn't get the book of Roy Lessin over here and was appalled that amazon is selling it. But I think if somebody would complain about it, they would remove it immediately as glorifying of violence and any kind of assault is a criminal offense.

I'm not sure that I agree with canadianspankee that spanking children is a parents choice, as children are not their property and not their slaves. That's just a fact and part of human rights and the UN convention as Grace mentioned in her article.

However I would not argue about it with american parents or look down on them as it seems that spanking children is not against american law. But in Germany spanking other persons without consent is a crime and thus no item for discussions. Even with consent it may happen that spankers get charged in the case it comes to serious injuries.

The only thing I wonder about is the question if you see SM merely as a result of a violant education as you wrote or also as a part of personality. It seems to me that many persons who were never spanked as children are still attracted by SM. Another point: Is masochism necessarily a consequence of a vandalized lovemap or just a normal variant in human behavior?

22 November 2011 17:47
bendover said...
As far as the Adams case, the judge has not held court since the video was released, and has a temporary retraining order on him from seeing his 10 year old daughter put on by his ex-wife. However, the wife crying "Oh I was under his Power", bullshit I say! Women in the U.S. especially, don't put up with the crap anymore. She could have stepped in front of him and been The Woman as she wanted her daughter to be. She's just as guilty. This judge embarrassed the legal system all over the country, not just Texas. Boot his ass out along with the rest of his body. Phew! (Steps off my soapbox)

Oh, great article, Grace.
B
22 November 2011 19:40
lusher said...
This is a cogent, well-sourced and well-argued article, Dr. Grace. I would love to see it in a mainstream and widely read publication or a highly trafficked parenting blog, though I can't think of any that might be brave enough to publish it. It deserves a wide audience, especially given the recent Hillary Adams case, whose ramifications you explore so well. It doesn't matter how frequently spanking children is practiced or with what conscious goals; popularity and good intentions do not mitigate the damage done.

I've always read your stories as dual-edged: they acknowledge and powerfully play to the sexual feelings of spankees while criticizing and satirizing the actions of authoritarians who use spanking to subjugate those under their control. This is especially evident in your stories where the father controls his spouse in addition to their children through spanking. In spousal discipline, the sexual element is overt, and it's conveniently naive to suppose that element somehow disappears entirely in childhood discipline. Certainly, the sexualized memories many spanked children have of discipline, and later use of it in their adult sex lives, is ample evidence that spankings often feed into sexual arousal -- *whether they are intended to do so or not.*

As a person with my own conflicted lovemap, I appreciate your stories, thoughtfulness, and courageous exploration of these issues more than I can express. I sincerely look forward to Part 2.
22 November 2011 22:36
tiptopper said...
First, a couple of minor corrections. Grace says that in the US 22 states permit corporal punishmen in schools which usually means paddling. Actually 19 states permit corporal punishment in public schools. (In the US "public schools" means schools run by the state or city) 48 states permit corporal punishment in privately funded schools.

As for Judge Adams, legally it doesn't matter if he was criminally abusive or not since the event occurred more than 7 years ago. He can not be prosecuted as the statue of limitations has run out.

Texas is often held out as the prime example of school paddlings because it paddles more kids than any other state. What is overlooked is the fact that Texas is much larger than other states. It is near the bottom of the list in percenatge of students paddled. Other smaller states have a much higher percentage of students who are paddled.

It can be debated all day as to whether corporal punishment is idealogically correct or not but here is a pragmatic fact. A few years ago a US national education organization asked teachers what the 3 main problems in school were. Their answers were drugs, violence and pregnancy. 50 years before, when discipline was much more strict, that same organization asked teachers what the 3 main problems were. Their answers at the time were talking in class, chewing gum in class and running in the halls.

So the question that has to be asked is: Is politcal correctness or effectiveness more important?

23 November 2011 01:24
njrick said...
Whoa! Surely you're not suggesting, tiptopper, that teenage pregnancy, drugs, and school violence are the result of fewer spankings in school? That these problems aren't instead the result of single-parent homes, absent parents (physically or emotionally), or even permissive parents? And no, I do NOT equate "permissive" with "non-spanking." Children can be effectively disciplined without spanking. )just as they can be disciplined in-effectively WITH spanking - I've known parents who do nothing to curb their children until they get totally out of hand, and then really bust their asses.... and the children are monsters).
23 November 2011 02:09
canadianspankee said...
What gets me about this ariticle is that first it picks on two extreme examples supporting spanking, the book by Roy Lessin and the example of the judge in Texas. These are given as examples of what spanking does to people. Extreme examples of anything are the bases for nothing.

Second the article talks about an "authoritarian personality" like it is a disease and not just a type of personality. It speaks of such personalities being in Nazi Germany. Does one think the writer likes this type of personality or even thinks it should exist?

Thirdly when talking about Texas and ignoring the fact of the hugh population, says it has the highest number of paddlings in the USA. Percentages say different but the writer here next calls Texas "a slave state". I didn't know Texas still has slaves, I wonder how many Texans know it? It then goes on to relate how beating slaves back in the previous century is somehow related to spanking of children today. Like the Texas people or any others who spank theri children had not learned anything in the past century or so.

Lastly and my main point is this. I do not agree or disagree with parents spanking their children, it can work both ways. To me it is a decision that should be left to the parents. Governments and others should bud out beyond providing education which should stress there are choices, and those choices are up to the parents. To give the impression or idea that parents who spank are a disgusting type of person usually supporting movements like Nazi Germany or treat their children like slaves is wrong.

23 November 2011 03:54
mati said...
@tiptopper:
In reference to teenage pregnancy spankings seem to be politically incorrect AND ineffective. The rates of teenage pregnancies are much higher in the US than in europe and especially higher in the "Bible belt". Wikipedia writes:
"The rate for the United States is 52.1 per 1000, the highest in the developed world – and about four times the European Union average."
23 November 2011 04:08
mati said...
@cs:
I don't understand why begetting a child should imply the right to beat it. Children are very vulnerable and helpless. How is it possible, that somebody thinks that beating (and beating it is) the most helpless creatures could be a free decision to parents who are themselves drinking too much, eating too much, having sex with the neighbour, looking at bad movies, coming late to work, don't pay their taxes and drive too fast.
23 November 2011 04:25
canadianspankee said...
@Mati
As I said I neither agree or disagree with spanking children, all I said was that it is the parents right to chose and everyone else should not demonize or praise which ever choice is made.

I was spanked as a child and never once thought of those as beatings, and there was no reason to think they were. It has only been in the last couple of decades spanking children has been thought wrong, Are we saying all the previous generations were wrong, did not love their children, were cruel. Were our grandparents that bad of parents?.

There are a lot of people in the world who would call this site a porn site and close it down quicker then you can wink. It is open because we have a choice in what we want. If we are ready and willing to take away parental choices, are we also ready to have people take away our choices?. You can argue, but we are adults, but so are the parents who chose to spank or not spank their children.

An example to consider...medical science comes out with a drug and says it the "be all and end all" for such and such things. Things go along for 40 or 50 years and then we see the backlash and all the experts who supported the miracle drug in the past are proved wrong.

The example in the field of social work is the same, it changes according to the times and it will change again. Perhaps in 10 years spanking will be popular again. You may now say it will never happen, but then again did you ever think you would have a possiblitly to have a 3D televisiion set in your home.



23 November 2011 05:33
mati said...
@CS:
I don't trust human beings very much, so I think every cruelty could be popular again in ten years. But I think having a 3D television in my home is a fine thing, drilling children into blind submission is not and will not work any longer anyway.
23 November 2011 05:57
TheEnglishMaster said...
The heat of the discussion thus far is testament to the power of Dr Grace's article! Thank you - I found this really enlightening, with echoes of Wilhelm Reich and Alice Miller. Your exploration of the social psychology of spanking was bound, I guess, to arouse the greatest controversy (though I found the physiological section just as interesting).

To throw another hand grenade into the fray, I wonder to what extent defenders of parental or other forms of spanking of children are motivated by their need to justify their parents' actions in order to avoid entertaining the painful possibility that their parents were indeed cruel or sadistic (even if themselves unconsciously acting out their own suppressed justifications of what happened to them). Hitler was brutally beaten daily by his (half-jewish, it seems) father while his (much younger) mother, though loving, was helpless to intervene (shades of the Addams case?). He, too, I believe, said it never did him any harm! Hm.

Only a strong social consensus against the practice of beating children was ever going to be enough to counteract this deep-seated (sic) replication of violence from generation to generation (the sins of the father etc) and even now, after many years, it lingers on stubbornly.

'Spanking' as a word is, presumably, onomatopoeic, and it serves as a euphemism for what Mati rightly describes as 'beating'. What else can this teach defenceless children other than that bullying violence is a 'good thing'?
23 November 2011 22:16
canadianspankee said...
@TheEnglishMaster
I give little credit to the article in a professional sense, it is hastlly and poorly put together with misleading statistical facts about Texas and uses the most extreme examples of spanking that could likely be available in a hurried search.

The simple fact is that no social consensus has put a stop to the practice simply because the spanking of children has been done throughout the ages (way before slavery was ever in North America) and will likely still be here when and if the nations of the continent are long gone and forgotten.

There will be arguments about this subject for years to come, but the legal system in this country and the USA has taken their stands on the rights of the parents and every one should respect that right.

I speak from a stand point of no one should have the right to refer to parents as " not the only authoritarian folks around, but they provide the saturated case for a social order" or, and I quote again, "the spanker enacts the sadomasochistic role of a dominant while the spankee enacts the role of submissive." The articles intent in my own opinion is to infer parents who spank fit into these categories, which in many ways turns my stomach.

Were all our great grandparents and ancestors these types of individuals, certainly not and generations went on for centuries before this so call social order we have today occured.

There is a good point to be made that children can be disciplined in many ways besides spanking, but if a parent choses to spank and it is legal in the country in which they reside, not one of us has the right to call down individuals for excersiing that right. To me what this article tries to infer, in a tramatic way, is that one who choses to spank their child feels like a monster or that they are terrible parents.

Again I stress I am not for or against spanking children, but I am strongly and always will be for the right of any parent to make their own decisions about how to raise their children. That right is established in the courts of land, in history of the past 2000 years and should not be taken away.

If we agree that "social consensus" should rule, then this site and many like it do not have long to exist. If we give up the right of the parents, how long before our right to read, write and belong to a site like KLSF will no longer exist either?

23 November 2011 23:29
Sebastian said...
If you search engine the name "Roy Lessin" you can get information on this book. There is a letter by a young women, who knew Roy Lessin and his wife, and whose parents of this young women, followed the teachings of this Sadist man and his wife.

http://cdugan0.tripod.com/RoyLessinOpenLetter.html

The above is the link.
23 November 2011 23:31
tiptopper said...
I think that it comes down to this: Some people have good parental skills and some do not. Also some children respond better to one form of discipline and others respond better to an entirely different form. The parents should use what is effective and what they are comfortable with and not what is politically correct at the time.

My illustration about the behavior of children in school deteriorating was to show that the no-spanking policies that have become more common don't do what their proponents claim, that is, make children and society better. I tend to be pragmatic; I use what works and not what is popular at the time with certain groups.

Like a kitchen knife spanking is a tool that can be very useful but also can be very harmful, especially if you don't know how to properly use it. In spite of what proponents and opponents say it is neither inherently good nor inherently evil.
24 November 2011 07:25
canadianspankee said...
@tiptopper
I entirely agree, what is "politically correct" is not always right for every situation. Now of course you realize that some might start saying knives should not be allowed in the home and perhaps say such people who keep any knives are authoritative persons and would support a Nazi type goverment? Just teasing....oh the tangled webs we weave. LOL
24 November 2011 07:53
mati said...
@cs: I agree totally with you, that knives and canes are innocent and the possession doesn't make you dogmatic. However using both on defenceless children, just because they don't stick to some homemade, mostly very stupid and superfluous rules (f.e. don't have sex before you are married), maybe deriving from of an authoritarian personality. Not every dogmatic person supports fascism, but the other way makes sense: If somebody isn't dogmatic he/she is probably not so much attracted by fascism. If you are not sure, that your values are sancrosanct you wouldn't beat anybody who is not sticking to them, would you? But if you are not dogmatic and don't think that you defend sancrosanct rules of life and just want to show your child, who is possesing the power, it would be mere sadism to beat a child, wouldn't it?
24 November 2011 12:54
canadianspankee said...
@Mati
I know numerous families who on occasion spank their child/ren. Whether this is dogmatic on their part I don't know, but none of them I would say "beat" the child. I think we need to define what spanking is in some manner. A boy at the age of 5 I am sure you know takes bumps and bruises in normal play, are we saying 6 swats of the hand is going to sersiouly endanger this child? The boy wrestles with his friends, etc etc and thinks nothing about the swats 10 minutes later then you think of a coffee 10 minutes after you drink it. Is that what you call a "beating", because I don't.?

These folks I know are not fundamentalist christians, just normal people trying to do the best they can in a mad crazy world where raising a child is one of the hardest things to do.

Admitted some use a hairbrush on a older child, however if not immediately, the child is hugged and loved, talked to and knows they are loved a lot by their parents, in fact a lot of stories in this Library write about the same thing happening except this is real life. Of all the kids I know, they all have normal problems and get into normal kid situations, but none of them "hate" their parents, none are involved with Child Welfare.

So are these parents wrong? All I know is that I do not have the right to judge them, look down upon them or write articles that infer such parents come anywhere near the terrible actions fo the Judge in Texas and none are anyway near the sadistic actions as presented in the book by R Lessin.

I have seen some of these kids grow up into young adults and they are just like,the average young person on the street. Some have problems just like non-spanked kids do, but most are young adults who do what they can and all are connected to their families.

This site has about 9100 members, let us say that 5% of those member spank their children, so roughly 450. The 5% is taken from my head so there is no facts establishing this %. So lets reduce the number down to 250. If they read this article produced by someone who claims a title of "Dr." in front of her name, how do you think it would strike them?

This article would strike them as saying they are abusive, that they are likely followers of Lessin in being sadistic, they would support Nazi governments, they would one day beat their child in public with a belt, because that is what people who spank their child do.

If this article was written about gay people or ones of a different colour we would all be raging on about it saying how wrong it is. But because it is something that social therorist say is wrong, many say producing this kind of writing is acceptable, what a great writing, etc etc.

I can go on other well known spanking sites and find dicussions of the Psychology of Spanking which expalin why people like spankings that explain the emotions and reasons why some adults are into spankings. To me these are the ones who explain the Psychology behind spanking, this article seems intent on attacking a segment of our society rather then telling the adults on this site why perhaps they like spankings or spanking others.

I am not arguing people should spank their child, what I am saying is that it is hard to raise a child and we have no right to judge others in how they do it. We as writers and readers on this site hide our real names for fear of others judging us for what we write or read.

Many kids break the rules and punishment is not always the same even in a household that spanks. One would think a child gets spanked for everything they do wrong. That impression is wrong! A lot of the older kids are given choices, grounding for a week or longer, no allowance etc ect, and most chose the spanking. (Sounds like a lot of our fantasy stories doesn't it).

There are a lot of well educated people out their in highly paid jobs who are not dogmatic, who are not attracted to facism, who would think we are perverts for being on this site, but these ones spank their child. Whose right, I don't know, but I refuse and will take issue with anyone who infers these are lessor people or are morally wrong to raise their child in the best way they deem possible.
.
24 November 2011 15:31
canadianspankee said...
For those who argue that the "whole social science community" is behind not spanking, here is an article out to TIME magazine published in 2006. You may have to copy and paste this link in your brower as I am not sure if it will work on this page. Cheers

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1191825-2,00.html
24 November 2011 15:53
mati said...
@CS: Don't you think, that people who are brave enough to spank little children are also strong enough to bear a scolding from Dr. Grace?

24 November 2011 19:11
canadianspankee said...
LOL....a little scolding is one thing, liking them to Lessin or to the Judge is far from little. Saying they would likely support a Nazi govenment is far from little.

Quoting from her article "Castrations and hangings could impose the social order on non-submissive slaves, just as Judge Adams' belt imposed the authoritarian family social order on uncooperative 16-year-old Hillary Adams" implies a lot more then a little scolding in my opinion.

She likens spankings to castrations and hangings, come on Mati, clearly Grace went over board. I get scolded for some of my stories from Pink Angel or someone else and I accept it with a smile and say thanks. I am sure most people would accept a little scolding, this goes way beyond reason.
24 November 2011 19:33
blimp said...
Interesting article, Grace. You certainly seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. I don't approve of spanking children. In particular where their is a close emotional relationship between spanker and spankee it can be very harmful. The "It didn't do me any harm" brigade are of course everywhere but often it does do harm. I have mixed feelings about the punishments I received at school, some of the more abusive ones still make me angry.

I can always sympathise with a parent or even teacher that gets exasperated and smacks but cold blooded punishments are hard to comprehend. Looking forward to part two.
24 November 2011 20:53
Sebastian said...
There is a great deal that I could say on this particular subject and will probably wait until the conclusion of this article by Grace. I would have to say that I am not completely against spanking a SMALL child, as long as it was NOT a ritualistic procedure of a complete OTK or over an object, bare bottom and spanked until the child is screaming bloody murder. A spanking given, because a child had done something that might have been dangerous, such as going out on a traffic road and given a few hard spanks over his pants, will give him the message. Plus all of these spanks will show affection afterwards. This procedure is not always the case. Anything else is cruel and barbaric and could very well be classified as a beating or torture.
25 November 2011 17:15
ShineHerPants said...
Most of this fraudian analysis is where the term "psychobabble" came from. Egg heads who think they know the better way. They have twisted society into knots. Till we now have generations of neurotics..Just as they intended them to be.. The progressive. (yuck)
29 November 2011 01:42
blimp said...
Sorry Shineherpants, I fail to see any argument at all in your rather silly diatribe on Grace's excellent essay on the psychology of spanking. Abuse is always the easy option. Psychobabble is using highly esoteric language or jargon to give the impression of plausibility, at least that is what I understand the term to mean. Perhaps you would like to point out to us where Grace has done this. Perhaps it's easier just to say yuck when reasonably intelligent people are talking about things you don't fully understand.
1 December 2011 21:28
ShineHerPants said...
Sorry Blimp:
I understand "psychobabble" (statements implied as fact)my friend all to well. There is right and wrong in everything that happens in life. You don't need Dr. Spock to tell you what it is. In these matters I never let science, or foolish Govt. Studies drag me around by the nose. Progressives believe they know the truth when they know no such thing. Their aim is simply to destroy the family unit. And they are succeding by the look the family unit is in today. It is falling apart. Is that better? I think not.

Most of this article, and I have not read it all, because most of it is tedious nonsense, is pure conjecture laid out as fact. Children have been getting spankings for thousands of years and it has done a lot more good than the nonsense that is plastered across the world today. This is not a one size fits all world. Each one of us stands alone, like stones, each a different shape. We are not bricks, made all the same. So there is no blueprint for everything.

The proof is in the pudding. And the pudding at this time stinks. The world is no better off for all of these high blown theories. Not one lick.

Believe as you like, it's a free world, at least it was the last time I looked. I trust a mother to decide what is right 99% of the time. (I believe 99% of mother's love their children and want to do right by them).

Science, and the Government. I trust hardly ever. They are trying to shape the world closer to their heart's desire, and nothing more. That is not noble in my book.

There is no handbook in this life. And if there was, it would not be written by man. He's not smart enough. (IMHO)

When I was 2 years old I put my hand on the hot stove, by accident, and guess what, I never did it again. Have a nice day. Just make sure you don't step on the cracks. (if you know the old saying)
4 December 2011 13:14
blimp said...
Whether to spank or not to spank. I don't mind which side of the fence you sit on. It certainly wont make me think any less of you if you think spanking is the way forward. After all, we are all entitled to our views. Do you think however that you could show some respect for other contributors views, instead of labeling people you don't know at all as "eggheads" and referring to Grace's essay as "psychobabble"? Particularly as you admit you haven't fully read it.

My parents never spanked me, though the schools I attended more than made up for that. One thing that everyone insisted on though, is manners maketh man or to give it a more modern translation, manners make us human.My argument with you Shineyourpants was not with your opinions but with the manner in which you expressed them. I hope that has cleared that up and we can carry on without further unpleasantness.
4 December 2011 19:12
canadianspankee said...
@blimp
I could agree with you somewhat, but more improtantly I could have agreed with you if the article itself showed some respect for those parents that spank their childred,

To me the article was written in a manner to downgrade and insult any parent who choses such action, so I say if one wants respect for a viewpoint then they should write one with respect. I don't care about either side of the fence either but perhaps the saying applies, "what goes around comes around.".
4 December 2011 22:36
mati said...
@shineherpant, you wrote:
"When I was 2 years old I put my hand on the hot stove, by accident, and guess what, I never did it again."
I don’t understand, what you are trying to say?
For me the analogy to your example would be: When a child is getting hurt by his parents, it will try to avoid his parents in future.

"Believe as you like, it's a free world, at least it was the last time I looked. I trust a mother to decide what is right 99% of the time. (I believe 99% of mother's love their children and want to do right by them)."
Well, I think american mothers than are much better than German mothers. Just a few numbers to think about: 1 of 4 women in Germany have been sexually abused at least one time in her life. 80 percent of all rapes and sexual abuse happens in the family of the girls. So much to caring and loving families. I personally are quite glad that we are not living any longer in Stone Age and that children don't have to suffer from their parents. Better suffering from a lack of discipline than suffering from abusive fathers and blind mothers.
5 December 2011 10:14
Goodgulf said...
There's really nothing new in this article - except for the recent examples. Back when the internet was first taking off (call it almost 20 years ago) I spent hours looking through study after study on corporal punishment. None of them talked about positive results. Most of them were less explicit on the sexual aspects than this article but those were some that included discussions of that. As was the "I spank my kids the way I was spanked and there's nothing sexual about it" rebuttal.

Sciences dealing with the mind are often soft sciences because we don't really have a lot of hard facts about it. When you fall you fall at the rate of 9.8 m/s^2 - that's measurable and repeatable. When someone is brought up in a certain way some of them turn out bad while others turn out good - all you can do is look at the statistics and play the odds.

It's a bid annoying that MIRs are not being using to measure one of the most important parts of our psyche - sexually - but that's the people who approve experiments for you.

Since we are conditioned to believe anything an expert says, people react strongly when they disagree with an expert's statement. Shrug.

This conversation could use a little levity. So here's a link offered solely in the spirit of laughing at ourselves...

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1682#comic
5 December 2011 23:11
JessicaK said...
The Hillary Adams video is extremely upsetting. Wow.
My thoughts, extremely after the fact, primarily on the video because it's very powerful:
- there is nothing ever that could justify what Judge Adams does in that video
- nobody who advocates corporal punishment, that I've read anyway, would condone the rage he displays, and the threat to beat her in the face if she doesn't comply (!!!)
- according to him, there's more context, including her stealing. I'm sure a number of more old-school parents don't in theory object to taking a belt to a child that age who stole. Not sure what I think of that
- is it possible to administer a punishment like that in a calm and effective way? Or is this the reality, and it always comes down to "get over the fucking bed" and a grown man swinging a belt with maximum strength into whatever part of a child he can reach while roaring with rage?

This is a very interesting article, Grace. I'm not ready to condemn corporal punishment writ large, and still less to think we need more state interference in parenting. But I myself would not spank, even if it were "proven" safe, because there are always alternatives that don't involve physical pain, and I don't want my children to have memories of me causing them pain when I could avoid it. When I take a toddler to get a shot, all my 2 year old knows is "Mummy is forcing something that REALLY HURTS to happen," but I have faith that in a decade, he'll agree that I made the right choice. I just can't imagine a child beaten with a belt thinking, as an adult, "it sucked at the time, but it was the right choice," in the same manner.

Maybe I'm wrong, and lots of people in that situation do.
21 June 2012 16:45
VendeeVespers said...
Obviously, the entire thrust of the piece is to define spanking as completely illegitimate; indeed, the piece begins relatively objectively and is figuratively all but foaming at the mouth at the end. We have comparisons to Nazis, denunciations of Texas, etc.

Aside from whatever else might be said, the author doesn't say what should exist INSTEAD. Whatever may transpire in societies elsewhere, we live in one in which spanking -- and often very severe spanking has been the norm, and obviously, part and parcel of the entire machinery of society.

It I opened the hood of a car, I'd be hesitant to just yank out a part because I found it displeasing. Worse, I will note that those who most vehemently denounce spanking tend to have few or no children themselves. It's at least possible that delegitimizing corporal punishment will at best render society dysfunctional and at worst literally make it disappear as those who refuse to practise corporal punishment simply fail to reproduce.
11 May 2018 04:34

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